Welcome to Beyond the Bell podcast, where you will get an inside look into school life. We cover school-related topics that support your child's education and well-being. As you listen along, we hope you'll gain insights for navigating school with your child and leave with a deeper sense of connection between school and home. Here's your host, Chantelle Quesnelle.

Welcome to Beyond the Bell podcast, where you get an inside look into school life. We cover school-related topics that support your child's education and well-being. As you listen along, we hope you'll gain insights for navigating school with your child and leave with a deeper sense of connection between school and home. Here's your host, Chantelle Quesnelle.

Chantelle: Hello, Simcoe Muskoka families, and welcome to another episode of Beyond the Bell. Have you ever wondered what happens behind the scenes when there's a potential safety concern at your child's school? Well, if so, this episode is for you.

In schools, the goal is always to create a safe, supportive environment for students to thrive. But when a student expresses something alarming, whether it's through words, actions, or behaviour, schools need a plan for how to respond. That's where our threat and risk assessment and intervention process comes in. 

These processes aren't just about addressing danger, they're also about understanding a student's needs, identifying early signs of distress, and essentially putting the right supports in place. We hope this episode will help you feel more informed about how schools and the school board responds when these concerns arise. So let's jump in. 

Our guest today is Lisa Hickling-Miller. Lisa is a school counselor and a threat assessment and intervention trainer at the Simcoe Muskoka Catholic District School Board. She is a registered psychotherapist with the Masters of Arts in Counseling Psychology. Lisa works in both elementary and secondary schools across our board supporting students and school teams. She brings over 25 years of clinical experience in child and adolescent mental health. Thank you for joining us today, Lisa, to help share information with parents and caregivers about how we respond to threat-related concerns at our school board.

Lisa: You're welcome. Happy to be here. 

Chantelle: Well, I think probably the best question to get started with is what exactly is threat assessment and intervention? Can you unpack that a little bit for our families who are listening? 

Lisa; Sure, and I think we're gonna do, we're gonna try this, this uh podcast to make it be understandable, right? For the parents that we're, that we're working with. So it's scary, it's a scary topic I'm sure for parents to hear that there are threats or there's potential safety issues in schools and that's why we really want to make sure that everyone understands that we have a very coordinated system systematic process of responding to and uh making sure that we're keeping kids safe in our schools. 

So if, um, the school becomes aware that somebody has made a threat or if there is threatening information that's been found either in an image or in writings or perhaps on social media if they post it even outside of school hours, or if a student comes and says, I've overheard somebody saying something. It's threatening that's when the process begins. 

And so the initial Stage One is very much involving the administration of the school, the teachers of the school to interview the students to talk and gather more information and data about what the threat is, the nature of it, the plausibility that it could happen, whether or not there are any immediate safety risks, if it's something that um is suggesting there is a weapon or a threat with a weapon, they would actually be investigating that immediately.

Uh, if that's the case, the police would also be involved and contacted. And so that's kind of the initial Stage One of getting the information and understanding is there a plausible threat? What's the information that we know, who are the people that are potentially involved, and then if further investigation needs to happen and we're wanting to understand the level of risk and we're wanting to make sure that we're wrapping around students that are involved, that's when the. Stage 2 process would begin and that's where it's going to be a multi disciplinary group that responds so it's often a school counselor or psychologist that we have on the board, other trained, uh, people that we have as trainers, and still the school staff as well and it may also include um conversations with the police or other agencies.

And the stage two is, is flushing it out a little bit more. So having more conversations with people involved, trying to go backwards and understand, were there any kind of indications that this was kind of leading up to the, the threat that happened or the safety concern that was expressed and that the important part of, of that step is us really trying to explain to the student and to the family, both of the person that has made the threat and also to any of the people who are potential um victims of the threat that we're wrapping around everybody and we're concerned about everyone's mental health and well-being. And the purpose of that second stage is very much about assessing the level of risk and then matching our intervention, or our response to that level of risk.

So we want to make sure that we've got a plan at the end of this assessment process where not only does the school uh community feel safe and the students involved feel safe, but everybody has those intervention supports which often mean um connection with potentially our, our own internal school counselor psychology support. It might be including mental health agencies, it may be including other agencies or whatever the specific needs are. So it's very much a wrap-around support and the intention of it is to understand the level of risk and again matching that response to that level of risk.

Chantelle: It sounds like there's, um, a lot of information gathered, uh, at the beginning, and a lot of time and, and people are involved in that. Um, and I'm just wondering for our listeners, like, what is that process like? How, how long does it take and, and how do you know what questions to ask? 

Lisa: Yeah. Well, we have been very fortunate to have amazing training um through. Uh, the Center for Trauma Informed Practices, which is, is based out of Alberta. Uh, we have had the trainers come and train us and our partners in the public board, our partners at Georgian College, uh, some of our police services folks, and so we really have a community response and understanding all of us having the same training using the same language and the same process.

So we know that it's an evidence-based, you know, multi-year, I think we're on year 25 of, of the, the center, uh, doing this kind of intervention and training. So it's a, a very structured approach. Um, we have all taken multiple levels of training to know what the questions are. Um, it usually is days, so it's either 1 or 2 days or sometimes more because it's in, it's about speaking to the student that made the threat. It's about speaking to their family. It's about speaking to any of the other kids that might be involved, whether they're directly threatened or whether they know information. Um, the educators obviously in the, in the building. Um, and really working together with the family and everyone involved to get as much information as we can. And what's interesting, um, in the threat assessments I've been involved in are certainly the stories that have been told during the trainings is that by the time a student is making um, a significant threat of violence or is expressing pretty significant worrisome behaviors, we can rewind and notice that there were actually signs before. So one of the, the fundamental understandings of the threat assessment process is that no one just snaps, right? No one just says, I'm waking up today and this is how I'm feeling. It's always been a process of things, you know, kind of contributing to that state. Um, and that's what, you know, our, our system has come to understand over the last few years of taking this training. 

And so we respond to even what might seem like a relatively benign threat very seriously because we know that that student is basically saying… a cry for help is saying there's something going on with me and this is telling you that something's going on with me.

So we want to respond appropriately at that level to prevent it from potentially getting to a higher level risk or or threat. Um, so it's a, a multi-day process that's, uh, involving our team, so it takes, you know, us out of our regular job, those of us that are trained, and we go and make that a priority, and all of our schools understand that in those situations, obviously that's the priority. So it's a combination of school counselors, psychology, um, sometimes our ABA (Applied Behaviour Analysis) folks are involved, uh, the school principal, vice principal, sometimes the SERT (Special Education Resource Teacher) team or classroom teachers, and sometimes other agencies including police services, uh, and together, depending on who is the right person to ask the questions, um, we, we work together to determine that because it's, it's usually multiple kids that we're talking to…

Chantelle: Right.

Lisa: … throughout those initial days. 

Chantelle: Sure. And, and I know one of the things that, that we say or that that we've maybe already said, you know, in this episode is, is that we take, you know, all threats seriously. And so what does that, what does that really mean? Like to take all threats seriously? How is a parent, can I, can I understand what that means if something is said online or something is said in passing, like, you know, how, how do we determine the seriousness or if we're responding? What does that look like?

Lisa: Well, if, uh, for example, something is, um, if I'm using an elementary school example, um, and an image that is threatening in nature that may have a weapon in it, that may have, you know, images of, of violence or even somebody's name or an image of somebody being hurt. We would take that seriously and want to talk to the student, want to talk to the students potentially that it was given to, talk to the family, talk to the teacher we would take that as seriously as there being a verbal, you know, I am going to do this or I want to do that to somebody and this is how I'm going to do it.

And so whether it's an image or whether it's a verbal threat, we're going to respond in a similar fashion in terms of gathering that information. And that really, those initial conversations very much are the school teams that, that do those conversations. So the principal, the vice principal (if the school has a vice principal), um, the teachers, the SERT team having those conversations with the kids involved and trying to get an understanding. And even if there isn't then enough information that's suggests, you know, we need some further investigation, the school would still be communicating with the families about that and having a conversation with the student and the family, maybe even bringing in the school counselor to say, you know, do we need some intervention? Is this telling us that there's something going on or there's big emotions or there's conflict or there's sadness or anger. If it's something that's a little bit up the chain of, of threats, so if it's a direct threat, either verbally or in writing or on social media, we take that very seriously.

And so if it's specific, there will be an investigation that happens where the, the team at the school who are also trained, our principals are trained as well, um, know how to assess whether there's an immediate risk of threat. So they are looking to see if there are any things, any weapons, if that's a part of the threat, they're contacting police, they're responding immediately to that. And then the next stages (STAGE 3) happen after that immediate safety concern is, is taken seriously and responded to. So I think the important thing for families to know is whether or not it might, you know, seem benign if it's an image, we still respond to that seriously because we know that it's telling us something and, and because we're all mental health folks that are, you know, the trainers and involved in this, so we have trainers that are educators as well.

We very much look at this as an intervention process. We, we want to see that any, you know. Conversation about threats or violence or worrisome behavior is telling us that we need to be paying attention to the student and we need to be understanding what their needs are and that clearly there are some needs that aren't being met within our system and we have to help them and support them. And so that's, you know, hopefully something that families that are either involved or are a part of a school community where a threat assessment happens, um, can feel secure after this podcast and knowing that our intention is always to provide that intervention to prevent it from occurring and to make sure that the needs of the students are being met.

Chantelle: Yeah, and, and, and that all the, the questions and that kind of phase one or that exploration really does help inform or guide what those best interventions might be or, you know, who we need to have as part of of the school team. So they really kind of go together. And yeah, and I'm just thinking sometimes we think about, um, you know, threat assessment, um, or families might think about, um, responses to a threat, maybe from more uh a disciplinary um measure perspective and, and we certainly emphasize the the intervention, and, and can, can you again reiterate the the difference, you know, between those things or or why the emphasis on the intervention is, is so important?

Lisa: Yeah. Well, and it's, it, it's a bit of a shift in perspective, right? It's a paradigm shift. So if we talk to people who worked in education 45 years ago, right, the, the response would be a consequence, a punishment, a suspension, or something, and it's not to say that that still might not happen. It, it, it may, and that's up to the, to the administrators obviously in the, in the school to make those determinations. But what we know is that doesn't really support the student. It doesn't necessarily prevent something from happening in the future, and we may have missed the, the mark in only responding in that way because we're not then taking the time to understand what that threat or what that behavior was really telling us.

And so we know that anybody who is engaged in violence or, or threats of violence or behavior that's concerning, there's something going on in that person's life. And, and we know that to help that person move through that and not still be in a place of maybe a higher risk of acting on those threats, we need to respond and provide intervention. So we're very much trying to shift the system to look at it that way, right? Behavior always tells us something, and it's our job to figure out what that is and try to meet the needs in a different way so the student doesn't have to keep ramping the behavior up to get us to see that there's something going on.

And, you know, my experience in working with a number of elementary and secondary schools and threat assessments over the last, you know, 3 or 4 years has been that those are the conversations that we have to have with each other as educators and mental health professionals and the trainer, um, to kind of shift and, and challenge our own way of looking at it. So it's not to say that there aren't going to be consequences for some behavior they're very well, they very well might be, but there is also going to be equal if not more intervention response where we're, we're engaging mental health resources or whatever the resources are that we need to have the students needs met. 

Chantelle: Right. And that kind of, you know, the, the rationale for that, although, as, as mental health, you know, professionals, you and I, we, we know that intuitively, but for parents and caregivers who are listening, that's where that connection to the, um, the, the history of, of, of research that has really explored this in Canada. and in the United States and, you know, that, that really tells us that that intervention piece is really where we can see those, those shifts and make kind of a, an impact on concerns related to safety. That it isn't the, the consequence that, that stops the, the, the concerns from happening.

Lisa: That's right. And we, and we know because, you know, unfortunately there are media reports of these situations happening in the, in the US and in Canada – we're, we're not free of it in Canada. Um, but always if, if the story is unpacked in, in a good way, through media, um, you will see that there were behaviors or signs or situations or comments or somebody knew something or a teacher was wondering about this, or there was an essay that maybe had some content in it that was concerning those things are always a part of those stories.

So even though we get the biggest versions of stories in the media, when it's unpacked and rewound through that assessment process so that, um, risk assessment process, those other things are always a part of that person's story. It's never just a flip switch or something happened and then the person reacts. There's always a, an understory that that's yet to be understood or found out about. 

Chantelle: Yeah, and I think, you know, we've had other podcast episodes where, where we talk about, um, you know, the importance of communication between school and home, and also how school staff, um, have this unique perspective to see changes in behavior over time in, in, in unique ways that, um, you know, other people, other environments might not see and those relationships and all the information that we can observe or have shared with us in the school setting can be pretty unique. So we're well positioned to notice some of those changes and really engage with, with families um to explore and provide those supports. 

Lisa: Yeah. And it's, it's difficult obviously for families who are involved if, if the individual of concern is that the term that we use, but if the, the individual that has made the threat or has engaged in the worrisome behavior, their family, that, that's a difficult conversation, obviously, to inform a family that this has happened.

And so we try to partner with families and say our intention is not to, you know, punish your child or not to view your child as being bad. We want to understand what's going on and what we need to do, what we could do better, and what supports we need to put in place. So the family is very much a part ideally, of the assessment process, right? And so there's a concept that we learned in the training called the, the Bedroom Effect, right? So if we ask the question of the families, you know, do you have free access to your child's bedroom? Do you go in, do you see it? Are you looking around? Or do you kind of have hands off and they keep the door shut? And if the response is, no, we don't go in. We encourage the family to go in, right? If there's any, and we've talked about this in another podcast, you and I when we've talked about depression or anxiety that, you know, it's, it's OK for families to, you know, look at what's going on, right? Take the phone, read it, you know, look through the room. If you're concerned or if we're now in a threat assessment process and we're calling you, we're going to be looking for any information that could inform us about the thoughts or feelings or behaviors or, you know, resources or information that they're researching. So it's really important that we try as best we can to partner with the families and know that we're wrapping around their family and their child. And, you know, I think we do a very good job of that, but those are difficult conversations because, you know, obviously, if I got that phone call and it was my kid, I'd be, I'd be pretty impacted by that.

Chantelle: For sure, for sure. And one of the ways that we, as a school board tried to share some of these information, this information with, with families was was through something called a Fair Notice Letter or communication that goes out, um, typically at, at the start of, of every school year, and, and we know many boards, um, communicate this information in that way. Um, what are some, some key elements of that Fair Notice Letter that, you know, families might have received earlier um this fall that might be helpful to review?

Lisa: Mhm. Well, I think that, you know, having, having the families understand that we do have a process in place, that we've got policies and protocols that are our own within the board but are also in collaboration with our partners at the public board, at Georgian College, um, and with the police services, those are, those community protocols are kind of in process right now. But informing the family that we, we do take any, any threat of violence, whether it's behavior, written, verbal, uh, seriously, and that we have a process in place, letting them know that um we, we can and do have conversations even without consent from the family–initially because we have to respond in a timely fashion–but that they will always be notified when it's their child that's involved either as the individual concerned or maybe a child that has been uh threatened so we're going to have communication with those families. But we're also going to keep their confidentiality um respected right? So that doesn't mean that the entire school necessarily gets to know what's going on, unless there's need for the entire school to be informed if there's a level of risk. So I think it's important for families to understand that we've got a process in place that we have a multidisciplinary team that might be responding that initially it's going to be the school that responds and that we're going to to do it in a timely fashion to keep their child and everybody else in the school safe.

Chantelle: Yeah, thanks, thank you for, for sharing that. I think sometimes, you know, it's helpful to, to hear that in, in words and, and through this type of communication as well, and I think that really emphasizes, yeah, that intervention approach that, that we've highlighted here. 

So far, our, our episode as we kind of come to a close, has focused a lot on um kind of explaining some of the key pieces around our threat assessment and intervention process. And I'm wondering, Lisa, as um a school counselor and as a, a threat assessment and intervention trainer, um, if you, if you might share a personal reflection on how being involved in this process, you know, has impacted you, um, or any key, you know, takeaways or insights as you've reflected on the, the schools and families and, and students that you've supported that have, have gone through this really, um, yeah, difficult process.

Lisa: Well, it, it's, it's a very rewarding, uh, addition to work that I've done over, you know, 25 years, almost 30 years actually of working in children's mental health. And so at this point in my career to, to learn something new and be involved and become really passionate about it is, is pretty cool. And the reason that I'm passionate about it is that I, I don't think I understood. You know, how often there are these kinds of behaviors or even threats that are happening, right? So to be a part of the team that is is uncovering that, is responding to it, is being respectful of the student that makes the threat. I mean, that's the most rewarding part for me, I think, is engaging with the person that's actually made the threat. Not to say that the people that were threatened are not important, but for me to be able to try to partner with that student and understand what's going on and unpack some of their needs is very rewarding, right? And to be able to have the, um, interaction with the family and help the family understand that, you know, we've, we've prevented something from happening and now we know what to do about it.

And that's incredibly rewarding. And these are, you know, really, um, Important conversations to have. And I think it's also resulted in important conversations for all of us in the system to break down some of our assumptions, some of the ways that we may be responded historically. Um, and some of the, the wrong assumptions, right? This, this concept of, well, the kid just snapped overnight, right? That's a common statement. So that, to learn about that and to be, um, you know, understand that that's never the case and, and having conversations about it, uh, has, has been really powerful for me.

So I've, I very much appreciate being a part of the team and and uh it's the, the training has been amazing. I think all of us would say that it's uh it's heavy information at times, but it's, it's rewarding to be a part of, so I'm grateful to be a part of the team for sure. 

Chantelle: Yeah lovely, um. And then any, anything else that you think that, um, maybe we haven't covered or, uh, touched on in, in this episode regarding threat assessment, um, and intervention at Simcoe Muskoka Catholic that that you think would be helpful for our listeners to know about or, or any additions you'd like to add to the conversation?

Lisa: Well, I think for families that are listening, if, if you're seeing anything or hearing anything that you, you know, are feeling concerned about or seems worrisome. Whether it has a, a violent content to it or whether it just has something that seems a little bit disturbing to you. If you're seeing anything like that or hearing anything like that from your own child or even from friends of your children, let the school know, right? Because that conversation in and of itself can start a process of, you know, the stage one through three of, of this assessment process. And it's never too small. Like that, that's the thing that I think is important, right? Is that in conversations, we often find, we'll teach. in grade 2 maybe had a wonder about this, but they kind of didn't make a big deal out of it. It's OK to make a big deal out of it and for families to do that as well because we very much want to be partnering with families. So if there's ever anything and, and some of the threat assessments I've been involved in, it's been outside of school, it's been social media content that has actually prompted the the assessment process, and it's been families that have actually screenshot, sent to, and called the principal to say this is going on. What do we do about it? And well, we know what to do about it. So you have to let us know the information. So please, please, please, please feel free to do that and know that we would respond appropriately and take it seriously and you're never, something small is never too small. 

Chantelle: Yeah. It really is, um, you know, taking every threat seriously, focusing on that intervention piece, recognizing there is uh an evidence-informed process in place to really wrap around a student, their family, and a school team, um, and that, you know, parents and caregivers are part of that team, um, as well.

And so, yeah, thank you so much for your um experiences, uh, expertise and time today, Lisa. I always love having you on the podcast. So thank you for joining us again.

Lisa: Well I always love being on it on it. You're most welcome. 

Chantelle: I do. Um, parents and caregivers, we hope this episode helps take you beyond the bell and into a, you know, more, um, intentional understanding of what our threat assessment and intervention process is at Simcoe Muskoka Catholic District School Board. Please join us for future episodes. 

Thanks for listening to Beyond The Bell podcast. We hope you found today's episode helpful. 

Beyond the Bell is brought to you by the Simcoe Muskoka Catholic District School Board and our Catholic Parent Involvement Committee. It's hosted by Chantelle Quesnelle. Pauline Stevenson is our executive producer. Episodes are produced and edited by Portage Creative. You can find our show notes and previous episodes on our podcast website, beyondthebell.ca. 

If you like today's episode, leave us a review. If you have any suggestions for future episodes or any questions or comments about Beyond the Bell podcast, you can send an email to info@smcdsb.on.ca. Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you next time.