Welcome to Beyond the Bell podcast, where you will get an inside look into school life. We cover school-related topics that support your child's education and well-being. As you listen along, we hope you'll gain insights for navigating school with your child and leave with a deeper sense of connection between school and home. Here's your host, Chantelle Quesnelle.

Chantelle: Equations, fractions, word problems. On this episode of Beyond the Bell, we are exploring Math Mindset with Siobhain Millan, who is the assistant superintendent of program services and board math lead here at Simcoe Muskoka Catholic District School Board.

Siobhain is a former principal, vice principal, curriculum consultant, and math instructional coach. She has certainly worn many hats in education. As a mom of two, she also knows the challenges of being a parent supporting kids with math. Through her experience guiding her own children through tricky problems and working to improve math outcomes across schools, she has become passionate about creating a love for learning and helping every student succeed in mathematics. Welcome to the podcast, Siobhain. 

Siobhain: Thank you, Chantelle. I'm very happy to be here. 

Chantelle: We are excited to have you! So, many of us have said the words “math isn't my thing,” or “I'm not a math person,” uh, and I'm personally guilty of that, I think. But what does this really mean anyways? 

Siobhain: Well, whenever I hear that, I answer automatically. Everyone is a math person. I think that there's this myth that has kind of permeated society that there's such thing as a math brain or a math person and someone who is naturally gifted at math. And what we know is that's just not true. 

Chantelle: Right? 

Siobhain: And I think it has to do with math. Typically it's been very performative, so we feel like we have to perform and get the answer right. And when that doesn't happen, we feel bad at it. And so we really have to kind of work at debunking that myth and coming to the fact that everybody can learn math and everybody is a math person. 

Chantelle: So our mindset or how we think about, um, our, our ability to understand and learn math really has an impact on how we approach learning math, it sounds like. 

Siobhain: Absolutely. And there's a lot of research that shows that our brains are very flexible, and so they're constantly growing and changing, and we have that fixed mindset that our brains can't learn something that actually affects our performance at something. Having that growth mindset that perhaps we don't know it yet, but we can learn it really affects our, our performance and our attitude towards math. 

Chantelle: Mhmm. I feel like there is, um, some children's books out there, but the power of, of yet. And we've, we've heard that, I think, over and over, and it really does make a difference in terms of how we, you know, how we feel about ourselves as a learner and how, how we approach things. Um, I wonder, what are some other ways of thinking about a fixed mindset like I'm a math person or I'm not, and a growth mindset, how might somebody approach math learning with that growth mindset? What would that look or sound like kind of beyond the phrase of yet? 

Siobhain: Actually, there's a whole strand in the new Ontario math curriculum that focuses on social emotional learning skills in math. And that is, we realized that the importance of that, that students' attitudes towards math have such an impact on their performance and their ability to learn. And so this math strand really focuses on helping students develop confidence, helping them cope with challenges, to think critically and just to develop a positive identity as a math learner. So thinking about all the things they do in mathematics, their reasoning, proving, connecting, reflecting, communicating, so working on all those skills, because there's such a connection between students' mindset and their ability to persevere with problems and realize that they may not know something, but they can learn it and their ability to, to perform in math. 

Chantelle: I think that's so amazing that that is embedded within the curriculum, especially because we know how much that affects, um, a performance and, and outcomes. And just so have that as part of the learning and the language and, and approaching, developing those skills, I think is, is amazing. It's an important part of schooling. 

Siobhain: Absolutely. And when we think about it, when we have a good attitude towards something or a positive attitude, we want to do it more. We feel successful. 

Chantelle: Right.

Siobhain: And the same with mathematics, the students are feeling that they can't do it or it's too hard, or it's such a challenge that they can't overcome. Then naturally we'll shut down and think that this is not something I, I'm able to handle. So really building up students' skills and being able to persevere with things that are challenging, to not be afraid to make a mistake, and that's part of the learning.  Actually, our brain physically grows, the synapses physically connect when we make a mistake. And so that's an important part of the process and to, to welcome it and to embrace it. And that's some of the work that we're doing in our schools is really trying to shift students' mindsets and attitudes in mathematics, so it looks different in the work that they're doing. 

Chantelle: Yeah, and I imagine it also looks quite different for parents, uh, at home, because we're not seeing, um, our kids come home with the math textbook and go through the math problems that maybe we did when we were in elementary school or high school. And so, can you kind of paint that picture for parents? Why does math look so different these days, Siobhan? 

Siobhain: It does, and I, I know that. I, I'm guilty of that myself. I'll try to work, you know, with my, with my children in the past and working through problems, and that's not the way I was taught or that's the way we did it. And, you know, we tend to gravitate to the way that we were taught. And so things are looking differently, and there's a reason for that. We're working on trying to help students conceptualize mathematics rather than just giving a set of um, instructions on being able to solve problems, um by memory, and we call this kind of shift the difference in, in mimicking something versus actually thinking about it. So for instance, if you're thinking about long division, and don't let that scare you…

Chantelle: I was gonna say something came up in me just when you said that!

Siobhain: It traumatized a lot of people, me included. So thinking about that, you can probably think of the steps it took to perform long division because a lot of times they were ingrained in our, in our minds. We just followed the instructions and we were able to divide larger numbers.

Chantelle: Right. 

Siobhain: But actually thinking about the concept, we were able to mimic that. Actually thinking about the concept, do we understand the steps we did and why. And that idea of conceptually understanding something as to why and having students think deeper about it and have a, a stronger sense of the procedures that we do in mathematics, you know, are one set of procedures, but there's so many beautiful and different and unique ways of solving problems that although they may not be as efficient, they do help develop a sense of conceptual understanding of, of why we're working with numbers this way and helps, you know, strengthen the students' ability to understand and be flexible with numbers.

Chantelle: And so I'm thinking about that, that, sorry to interrupt but I'm thinking about that why. And I'm thinking about like engagement and learning and how when a student understands the why behind certain, certain steps or a certain approach to solving a problem that that learning might feel more, more interesting or more, um, you know, understandable as to why we're doing it versus feeling like we just need to memorize something. 

Siobhain: Absolutely. And then I think back and I would say I was one of those people who I was very good at mimicking math. I could - give me a set of instructions and I would know how to do it, uh, but it came to actually, you know, my work as an instructional coach and going back and teaching, you know, intermediate classes. I really had to develop a conceptual understanding of this math and, you know, understand behind it the the deeper meaning of things. And so I had those “aha” moments, I like, oh, I understand now why, you know, we carry the one! And you know, trying to get that in students from the onset of learning so that they have that, you know, strong foundation to be flexible and tackle harder and harder challenges. And so you know, with that, with the work that's coming home, and I'm thinking about going back to that idea of, you know, this could look differently, there's absolutely a place for skill practice for, you know, drills and, and to understand procedures. But there could be space or you might be seeing work that just looks a little bit different and, I don't know about you, but I've had the conversations at home where, you know, that there's a bit of a debate maybe as to how to solve a problem.

Chantelle: Oh yes, yes, yes, they happen. There's several people involved in those debates as well. 

Siobhain: Absolutely, you know, maybe moms, there's, I solve it a certain way, but that's not the way that, you know, my student solves it versus, you know, someone who's entering the conversation trying to help with the math solves it. And so, you know, these are all good and I think the idea is that there's not one way necessarily and that's what we're trying to develop with students too, a little bit more of that flexibility in their thinking. And so that can be frustrating as a parent too because again we like to, to teach the way we were taught and, and to share our own understanding, um but that understanding could be– look differently and again it's the idea is to help develop students mathematical thinking and their process, processing, their reasoning, and it's that deeper understanding of mathematics. Mm, so it's not always a worksheet or it's not always a text, right? A lot of times it's more visual, right? We're really trying to get students to use manipulatives and, and that's not to say that it's a lesser understanding and they're not there yet. It's, it's just to help develop those concepts. 

Chantelle: Certainly. And I think that also takes some of the pressure off of parents to have to either recall the skills that they had or– from their memory from when they, uh, were learning math and approaching these different problems. Um, it, it invites this sense of, of curiosity. How can we ask questions as a, as a parent to help, um, kind of guide that learning and help understand what they know already. Um, and so I'm, I'm wondering if you can talk us through some of this because, um, Siobhain, as we were preparing for the podcast today, I was, I was sharing how um we had one of those couch conversations in our family recently and my son's in grade 6 and kind of we're already feeling like we're not sure how to um support him or coach him or help him with some of the math problem solving. Um, and, uh, that's an interesting place and it feels kind of early. And so, how should we be approaching some of these conversations when the math is coming home and it does look so different from what we remember. 

Siobhain: Great, great question, and I think it goes back to that. That attitude piece. So if parents are saying, you know, this looks harder, I can't do this. I was never good at math. Um, we're passing on these attitudes about math that are negative. And, you know, we, we all have our struggles and, and things that we feel confident in, but I think it's important to keep that open mindset. So if your, your child's bringing something home and, you know, obviously maybe you haven't tackled that type of math in a long time and that's OK. Um, it could be just opening up with, you know, tell me a little bit about this. What do you already know about this topic, right? Why don't we take a look at something you've done before? Um, can you show it to me in a, in a picture, or can you, can you make it for me using some blocks or something that you have at home? Again, we're really trying to work on that visual representation. And so just having that entry point and just that openness, you do not need to be the, the keeper of the knowledge of math. You know, parents aren't expected to be that, um, you know, the…

Chantelle: …the experts! 

Siobhain: They're not expected to be the expert. And again, um, and I shared too that I'm, I'm in the same situation. I've got a daughter who's in grade 12 university functions, and that's not something that I can really relate to or get into too much with her. She's now beyond, you know, me in terms of it, but I can still sit and support her. 

Chantelle: Yeah.

Siobhain:  And when she's working through problems that are, are difficult and frustrating, it could be a sense of, you know, well, let's go back to this unit that you did before. OK, so what do you know about this topic already? OK. Who can you ask for help with? So it's, it's almost being that guide on the side too, right? Who, who can you talk to about this? What do you remember? Where can you start? And some of those little entry points. But I think it's really important or the most important thing is just that attitude piece and showing that, you know, giving your child that encouragement that you can do this, you can do hard things, and it's OK if you're struggling. OK, that's, that's almost expected, right? And I think that that struggle is where the learning takes place and the growth takes place. And that can be the hardest thing because, you know, oftentimes in mathematics, there's a shutdown, right?

Whereas I just don't want to do it anymore. This is too hard. And it could be, we're gonna try this for a little bit and if it's, you know, too difficult and it's causing a lot of, you know, friction or anger or, or becoming traumatizing, then just take a break and shut it down and I would communicate with the teacher. You know, we, we worked on this, we struggled with this part, but we're gonna keep at it. We could use some help. I think those are just important pieces, but just keeping that open mindset, encouraging your students, um, really walking them through that being that, that just that cheerleader for them.

Chantelle: Mhmm. I love that. I think it's taking that curious approach, exploring what your child or teen might already, already know, or where they might think the starting place is, looking at, you know, how they've approached maybe a similar problem in the past. And what those steps might be, but kind of asking those curious questions. And, and it sounds like for parents I know we, we started our, our podcast episode talking about mindset, being really aware of our own mindset about ourselves as parents when we're approaching, um, supporting our kids, you know, keeping that in check, knowing that we want to model that growth mindset and so the language or the self-talk that we're using as we're approaching supporting them is gonna make a difference on, you know, what, what they might take on or model themselves. And so, um, having that growth mindset for ourselves is important too.

Siobhain: Absolutely! Which is it's, it's difficult to do sometimes. And again, for a lot of us, it's been years and, and yeah, we probably haven't revisited math, you know, often, especially really specific, perhaps grade 6 curriculum. Um, but again, it's just trying to keep that in check and just that encouraging voice. And we know our kids are really capable and they can do this, and they can tackle hard questions, and they can be successful. And it's, again, we're working on math being less performative, and it's about that deeper thinking. And so struggle is expected and real, and obviously we don't want it to be detrimental to a student. So that's why reaching out and, and having those good connections with the school and the teacher. Um, but we know our kids can, can tackle these challenges and, and we're working to support them in, in being, um, having perseverance. 

Chantelle: Yeah, yeah, that, that grit and perseverance are so important in all aspects of, of learning. OK, so we started the podcast talking a little bit about um curriculum, and we talked about strand A, which focuses on some of the social-emotional learning and math mindset approach, and maybe this is a good time to shift into understanding a little bit more about where the curriculum is at and what supports are available, um, for, for learning. And so Siobhain, can you talk us through what the curriculum looks like, um, kind of high level and maybe what is a strand? 

Siobhain: Absolutely. So the Ontario math curriculum actually was revised in 2020. So a strand is like a, a subsection. So there's 6, actually 6 strands, sorry, I, I had to count 6 strands of the Ontario math curriculum. The first one is that social-emotional learning piece and thinking about mathematical processes. The 2nd strand is number, [then] algebra, data, spatial sense, and financial literacy. So those are the 5, again, 5 plus some strands in in math that have all of our um curriculum expectations in them for grades 1 to 8.

Chantelle: 1 to 8, OK. 

Siobhain: And so with that, um, actually, the Ontario curriculum is a really excellent resource for parents. There's a, there's a whole section. Specifically for parents, and it's a guide to parents too.

Chantelle: Oh! Ok.

Siobhain: And so feel free, you know, as a good resource, parents can go on to the government website and actually there's a link through our school board, SMCDSB website under programs. There's a section called Learning Math at home, and in there you'll find links to the parent guides in the Ontario curriculum. And the Ontario curriculum gives you examples. It gives you, it kind of walks you through what it is. So that's a good resource too if you're, you know, struggling with the concept. That's a place you can explore to find examples and key ideas and, and there's a little dictionary too with some definitions because we could all use that!

Chantelle: Oh perfect! That’s helpful.

Siobhain: Um, another resource that we have in all of Ontario is through TVO. It's called TVO Mathify. And what it does is it provides free online 1-to-1 tutoring for students in math for grades 4 to 12. 

Chantelle: Wow. 

Siobhain: And so that's something that everyone in a student in Ontario can access. You do need your students' Ontario education number, their OEN, and that can be found on the report card or feel free to call the school to get it. And that again gives some one on one tutoring with your students. So, you know, those students as they get older and you feel like, you know, your ability to support them is, is, um, becoming more challenging. Like there's some really great resources out there. But just starting, you know, thinking about younger students and, you know, starting with that, that mindset piece and attitude towards math, it can just be starting with having fun with math at home, you know, playing games, you know, playing card games, dice games, um involving your students in, in simple tasks around the house like baking and cooking and, you know, just…

Chantelle: That’s a popular one in our house - baking and cooking and measuring. 

Siobhain: It's the most real world fractions there is in in ways that we can just mathematize things that we're doing too. And as students get older, you talk about budgeting, you know, grocery shopping like that's a big one with financial literacy and, and just understanding number and, and math and, and ways to make real-world connections for our students. And so, you know, having that– those conversations and, and mathematizing things at home, I think it's, it's just a great entry point into, you know, working on our students' attitudes. I'll share a game we used to play at my house. My, my kids are older now, but, but we used to play something called math stairs. And it was at a time when You know, they really had to learn, you know, their multiplication facts, you know, they had developed some good conceptual, but there is a point in time where you just need to know them and, and practice that fluency. And so, as my kids would procrastinate to– going to bed, they enjoyed this game probably any other time and place they wouldn't, but they enjoyed math stairs because it was a way to, to avoid bedtime is– so in order to climb up the stairs, you had to answer a math problem. And so it was focused on multiplication. And so they would climb the stairs doing their times tables. And it was just a, a little routine we did every night and it's just kind of a fun way because again it got our attention. I got them from, uh, going to bed too early. So, you know, just fun ways that you could show that you value mathematics, that you, you know, you want to be a part of those conversations and, you know, find ways to just, just have fun with it.

Chantelle: Yeah, and I, I think that's really the, you know, the, the playfulness and the fun also creates that sense of, of relationship, um, around learning and learning at home or, or homework if we still call it that. Um, but I think that's really important because oftentimes, you know, when I've experienced it myself as a parent, there can be a lot of tension in, in those moments and um, it can create a, a, a kind of like difficult interaction around, around homework and around the learning at home and, and those supports. And so finding ways to bring fun and connection and kind of that shared experience, um, is a, is an example of how we can shift mindset through action and through activity as well. 

Siobhain: And absolutely, and I think all educators would agree that if it's becoming so um contentious or it's becoming such a battle at home, it's not worth it. It's not worth sacrificing a math attitude or, or a student's confidence in math, if it's becoming such a struggle. And I know every educator would want the same thing. No one wants to see their, their students struggle to the point where it, it becomes so frustrating and it's detrimental to them, and their well-being, into their social-emotional health in mathematics. We want our students to feel confident and to feel capable. And so reaching out to the school and to the child's teacher, I think would be the best suggestion to help work together on that, right? It's the idea of, you know, as much as, you know, it's going to come to a time where it's going to get challenging and that's OK, we're gonna try to have fun with it and, and building all that up and having that, you know, background of being able to, to have fun with math and, and to build that positive mindset, I think will, will help sustain those difficult times.

Chantelle: For sure. No, I do, I do think that's, that's so important. We talked about, um, the, the strategy of, of curiosity, um, the importance of kind of parent and caregiver mindset as they approach, you know, um, the, the math, the math learning themselves, and how to, how to be aware and notice maybe some of the, the mindset or, or the self talk around math that that our kids are having. Um, we did kind of explore a little bit of, of the curriculum pieces, and I'm wondering, um, Siobhain, you know, when we were, we were, when we were looking at your, your history and, and your roles within the education system and, and being the math lead, I wonder, can you share with with, the listeners about um the emphasis that is on math right now, whether that's at the ministry level or things that we're doing more locally at our school board, but um is it, is it new to have more emphasis on, on thinking about math? And if so, is there a reason for that? 

Siobhain: Great question. You know, math has always been a priority, um, as we know, uh, different governments have put different emphasis on, on certain things. Um, we are working right now through a provincial– it's called the Mathematics Action Achievement Plan. So we know that it's an area of need in, in our province, in our school, and so we're really focusing our resources, we're focusing on. You know, building capacity in our teachers to really understand the content, uh, we're building, you know, trying to really work on making those connections in schools to really understand our learners, you know, what strengths do they have? What are some needs we have to work on to support every learner where they are at? And so there's a lot of work being done at our school, and there's a lot of work being done centrally to provide professional development. A lot of work being done in, in schools. We have math coaches and facilitators working in schools to support classrooms and teachers. So there, there's a lot going on right now with math and there is an emphasis on it. And, you know, that's part of the work I'm doing at the school board is to bring more emphasis to make these connections to help, you know, guide us towards success because as we know, everyone is very capable of math and and capable of achieving it at a high level and it's something that we're gonna keep working towards.

Chantelle: Yeah, and I, I think, you know, the, this podcast then is also so well timed because we know the importance between that home-school connection and having parents and, and caregivers kind of understand the, the context and have some, you know, tips and understanding around the importance of math, kind of mindset and the approach to this learning really does help, um, kind of, uh, amplify and extend some of the things that we're doing at school. And it's, it's a really important part of, of that wraparound approach to, to learning.

Siobhain: It sure is. Yeah, we definitely welcome that. And the more again, I can encourage connections between home and school and have those conversations because, you know, we're all working towards the same goal, and that, that's really supporting our students and our kids with mathematics and, and well-being in general. 

Chantelle: Absolutely. Well, Siobhain, is there anything that we were hoping to cover today on math and math mindset that, that we haven't had a chance to just yet or would be helpful to share with our families who are listening?

Siobhain: There's some really excellent, excellent games and activities that are already set and ready to go that you can just take and use in your family. Uh, there's links to the TVO Mathify, there's links to the Ontario government, uh sorry, the Ontario math curriculum. And, and so, so exploring some of that is, you know, a really great resource to help engage in those math conversations at home in a really fun way. So thank you again for this opportunity. It's, um, it's been a really new experience. I'm having, a I'm trying to keep a growth mindset about podcasting, um, but it's, it's really welcome. So thanks, Chantelle. 

Chantelle: Oh, I love it, growth mindset and action! Uh, well, parents and caregivers, we hope this episode helped you, uh, have an inside look at the wonderful world of math and the importance of math mindset, both for you and your student. Thank you for being here with us today, Siobhainand Simcoe Muskoka families. Thanks for following our monthly episodes of Beyond the Bell. 

Thanks for listening to Beyond The Bell podcast. We hope you found today's episode helpful. 

Beyond the Bell is brought to you by the Simcoe Muskoka Catholic District School Board and our Catholic Parent Involvement Committee. It's hosted by Chantelle Quesnelle. Pauline Stevenson is our executive producer. Episodes are produced and edited by Portage Creative. You can find our show notes and previous episodes on our podcast website, beyondthebell.ca. 

If you like today's episode, leave us a review. If you have any suggestions for future episodes or any questions or comments about Beyond the Bell podcast, you can send an email to info@smcdsb.on.ca. Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you next time.